Financially Inclined April 18, 2025 Transcript

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Yanely Espinal: What's up, everybody? I'm Yanely Espinal and this is Financially Inclined from Marketplace. We're sharing money lessons for living life your own way.

Growing up, I found negotiating so intimidating. I always thought the price you see is the price you pay, or when you get a job offer, you should just be grateful for it. But now I know it doesn't have to be that way. 

Today, I'm talking with writer, podcaster, and career coach Mandi Woodruff-Santos about the ins and outs of negotiation. Mandi is an expert negotiator who helps her clients advocate for themselves in their careers and beyond. So I know she'll have great tips to share. All right, let's get into it. 

Espinal: Okay, tell us like why is it that so many people think, and you probably agree, that negotiation is one of the most important skills that you could have?

Mandi Woodruff-Santos: Well, first of all, I think that kids from a young age are taught to be quiet, be respectful, mind their manners, etc. And that can really like dampen their self-advocacy muscle. And I have to help heal those childhood wounds of the women that I work with every day so that they can be brilliant negotiators. And I think it also starts by removing the stigma of negotiation. Even that word just feels like a briefcase is somehow involved. It's just not at all. It really is about, “Okay, what do I need from a situation and what does the other person need from a situation and how can we meet in the middle?” And that's a really crucial, I think, skill to be learning ASAP. 

Espinal: Yeah, I like that you said like it’s any situation because I do feel like every time I hear negotiation my brain immediately goes to negotiate for a higher salary, and like you said, like there's a lot of situations in life where you might need it because it doesn't necessarily mean like you're getting your first job. It could be like you're negotiating something else in your life that you need these skills for. 

Woodruff-Santos: 100%. You know as a teenager you actually have lots of opportunities to advocate for yourself. So think about even if you're getting a part-time job or like a lot of kids, you're doing little small jobs, babysitting, lawn work, you know, helping a relative, an elderly relative or a neighbor clean out their basement, things like that, try to negotiate the pay. 

Espinal: What else can you do though, like to help smooth the negotiation process before you even sit down at the table?

Woodruff-Santos: First thing I'll say to help you maybe get over a bit of that, “Oh gosh, how do I like, negotiate? I feel bad, you know, they need my help, and I should just do it for free.” No, no, no, no, no. Research and facts and data can really help you calm down and get into a space of, “Well, this is just factually true.” So when I say what I mean by that is you research for your essays, your term papers, your exams all the time. Research for what the average wage is for someone who is mowing lawns, for someone who is doing childcare services in their home. You can put in your zip code into Google: zip code, childcare hourly rate, and start to figure out sort of what is a reasonable ask. And I actually was negotiating with a potential babysitter for my kids. And she was 16, I met her on the playground. She was amazing with another kid. And I was like, "Ooh, Katie, can you, are you gonna, can you help me out?" And she was like, “I don't know. Okay, so what should I charge? And I could have just told her, “It's 20 bucks girlfriend, it's a lot of money.” But instead, I said, “Go ask a couple of your friends who babysit and see what they're charging.” Because that is important too, is to like, from an earlier age, get comfortable talking about money with your peers. Because it's the same thing I'm going to tell a 35 year old in corporate America is go talk to a person, talk to a friend, a peer, about what they're making if you're not sure, you know, if what you're making is fair. And those are, it's just fun to see the parallels between ways you can be advocating for yourself and talking about money as a teen and how they totally apply in 20 years. 

Espinal: Now in my experience with negotiations or talking about negotiating, I feel like there's a much bigger focus on tactics, strategies or one-liners, and people don't really talk about relationship building. So can you talk about the role that relationship building plays in negotiating? 

Woodruff-Santos: When you have a reputation, when you're the kind of person that people enjoy working with, they find you to be fair and generous and, you know, empathetic and just a kind person in general, they're going to be so much more likely to be willing to come to the table and actually, you know, give you something of what you want because they already have this rapport with you. A lot of the negotiation I teach, um, it happens before you're actually asking for the thing. Your negotiation starts by how do you greet someone when you walk in, you know, to your job or to school that day? How do you respond? Are you respectful to your peers? Are you respectful to your teacher? Cause baby believe me, when you walk in there and you're like, “Mm, can I get some extra credit for doing this such and such, you know, my grade's a little low,” 100% it's going to rely on how does that teacher feel about you?

Espinal: Yup.

Woodruff-Santos: You know, what's the, what's the quality of y 'all's relationship and your rapport? Just this like genuine respect and kindness can go so, so far. People want to root for you and you can't underestimate the value of that when it comes to negotiating. 

Espinal: Yeah, I love that. Talk us through what happens if you're in a negotiation and the two people that are negotiating have completely opposite interests and desires. Like, you want this one thing, I want a complete opposite of that. How can we both win if we want opposite things? 

Woodruff-Santos: Yeah, I mean, it's the frustrating word compromise, which if you look at it, I talk a lot about in negotiations, I think both sides of the negotiation, you should walk away feeling like you've both gained something, but the reality is that you probably also have lost something in the process. You know, think about what you can give up and think about what the other people may be giving up as well, and like take that into consideration, and it's okay to get comfortable with the idea that you may not get everything that you want.

Espinal: So we know that you have this like, you've developed this system to help with negotiations called the M.A.K.E.R. Method. Can you talk us through that and what is each of those letters in the acronym mean? 

Woodruff-Santos: All right, so starting with the five-step M.A.K.E.R. Method, you've got number one: make them excited to hire you. Number two: attract multiple offers to give you more bargaining power. Number three is know your value. So walk in there understanding what's fair before you even start the negotiation. Number four is eliminate their objections. So get ahead of anything that may deter them and be able to offer an answer to that. And then number five is rock the counter offer, because when you get an offer, it's not always the final word. 

Espinal: So Mandi, what would you say are your top tips for high school students who maybe they're negotiating for like the first time ever? 

Woodruff-Santos: Okay, so if you're listening to this, here's a too long didn't read version of this podcast. Three tips I want you to take away: One, is that your relationships matter. The quality of person you are, the way that people feel about you after you leave a room, the way that you treat your peers, the way that you treat your teachers, your family, that really matters. And it matters in negotiating because if people like you, and I don't mean you have to just like kiss up to them, but if they respect you and they have a good experience with you, they're going to want to root for you, they're going to want to see you succeed, and they're going to be much more willing to meet you in the middle and give you something that you want. So think about the quality of those relationships. Number two is that this is gonna be awkward and that's okay. So you feeling uncomfortable, like you've probably been told from a young age that it's not polite to speak up and ask for what you want and it's not polite to say no or to turn something down and ask for something different. You gotta unlearn that! And you gotta learn how to advocate for yourself, and it may feel uncomfortable, but you push through, you do it anyway. And then the third thing is that there's so much power in knowing your value, and the best way to know your value is to get comfortable doing your own research into what things cost, what your time costs, what the right wage or the pay can be for the certain tasks or jobs that you're doing, and to get comfortable actually talking about it with your peers. Because your peers, in real time, out there in the job market, are going to be one of the best sources of information you have so that you know what's fair and what you should be shooting for.

Espinal: For today's “Learn More” segment, I asked Mandi to stick around a little bit with me to do some role-playing because I want us to get a sense for how she handles negotiations in real life. So let's get into that. 

In this example, I've offered Mandi a job. I'm going to play her hiring manager, her boss, but she's not happy with the salary that I offered her. And so we're going to talk about that. 

Woodruff-Santos: Yanely, I'm so excited I got the offer! And the first thing I wanted to ask you is, can I have a little bit of time to review this? Because, you know, the pay is a bit lower than what I was expecting. And based on my research, it's not exactly in the ballpark that I was aiming for. But give me 48 hours to kind of look this over. And can I get back to you after the weekend? 

Espinal: Sure, you can take those two days. We would definitely love to know by Monday just because, you know, we kind of have to move forward with some of the decisions that come from your answer. So by Monday would be great. 

Woodruff-Santos: 100%. I'm so excited. Okay, I'll chat with you Monday. 

Woodruff-Santos: Hey, Yanely! So I just sent you this via email, but I wanted to follow up with a quick phone call. Thank you so much. I can't wait to join the company. I do have some questions about the compensation offer, and I just wanted to see if there's any wiggle room with the base compensation. I understand that there are some budget constraints, but when I've looked at a few competitors, and in fact, I have a job offer that I'm expecting any time this week from a competitor who is gonna be offering me $60,000. And I know that right now the offer stands at $50K, but I'd really like to work with you. So if there's anything that you can do to increase that base compensation, I'd be ready to say yes, and we can get this party started right now. 

Espinal: Absolutely love your enthusiasm. We'd love to have you join right away and get you started. But you know, to be completely frank, I can't really go above $55,000 in terms of this particular position. And that's sort of what I'm working with, right? And so I know there's probably other offers that are a bit higher than that, but with the budget that we're working with, I could only go up as high as $55,000. Would that work for you? 

Woodruff-Santos: Okay, I mean, I really appreciate that. I mean, that's meeting me in the middle. You know, one of the things that I think we could also consider is, is there any availability for an initial sign-on bonus? Even if you were to do $5,000, and you could pay that out quarterly even, or it can be a one-time lump sum, I'm open to, you know, I'm flexible there, but that would make me feel more comfortable really starting off on the right foot, coming in, ready to do the job, because I know that I am getting my value, and then also it could help you, I think, with your budget constraints, and I'm hoping that there's some wiggle room, maybe with a one-time signing bonus.

Espinal: You know, I hadn't considered that for this role, but I'm happy to take that back to our HR team. I think something that’s split quarterly may actually work better for the budget, rather than because we were told this particular role can’t be more than $55,000 all at one time. But let me take that back to our HR team and let you know, um, can we reconnect around 9 a.m. tomorrow and talk more about this? 

Woodruff-Santos: Oh thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking this to the HR team and for being flexible and understanding. Again, like I'm really excited to work with you. I think that we'd be such a great team. Absolutely we can talk tomorrow. 

Espinal: Great. You know, I can't make any promises, but I'll do what I can. Thank you so much.

Espinal: OK, thanks for listening to today's episode with Mandi Woodruff-Santos about negotiation. I hope this helps you feel more confident advocating for yourself, no matter what the situation is. I know you got this. 

And if you have any questions for us or you want to share your own story, our email is financiallyinclined@marketplace.org.

Financially Inclined is brought to you by Marketplace from American Public Media, in collaboration with Next Gen Personal Finance. I’m your host, Yanely Espinal. Our Senior Producer is Zoë Saunders. Our Video Editor is Francesca Manto, and our Graphics Artist is Mallory Brangan. The podcast was edited by Katie Reuther. Gary O’Keefe is our Sound Engineer. Bridget Bodnar is the Director of Podcasts. Francesca Levy is the Executive Director. Neal Scarbrough is the VP & General Manager of Marketplace. Our theme music is by Wonderly.

Financially Inclined is funded in part by the Sy Syms Foundation, partnering with organizations and people working for a better and more just future since 1985. And special thanks to the Ranzetta Family Charitable Fund and Next Gen Personal Finance for continuing to support Marketplace in its work to make younger audiences smarter about the economy.