This Is Uncomfortable September 12, 2024 Transcript

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Reema Khrais: Hey everyone, it’s Reema. So over the last five years, we’ve done more than 100 episodes of This is Uncomfortable and, as much as we can, we like to stay in touch with our guests to see how they’re doing, you know, if they have any updates. Recently, I caught up with Sian Pierre and his mom, Rebecca, who I interviewed a couple years ago. Back then, they shared this really intimate story that I think a lot of families can relate to. Their story gets at the struggles of saving for retirement, the risks of letting your job define you, and the sacrifices we make for our loved ones. I find their relationship to be very sweet and was excited to hear what they’ve been up to. But first, we’re gonna play the original episode, and at the very end we’ll share their update. Alright here it is. 

[music]

Reema: For Sian-Pierre Regis, 2016 started off great. He was at the top of his career. He’d gone from being an assistant, to a producer, to eventually an on-air contributor at CNN. And his goal was to just keep on climbing.

Sian-Pierre: I was consumed by that, and I really thought that I would be the best at it, that I would learn more, that it would get bigger scoops, that I would get bigger exclusives, that my name would get bigger. 

Reema: Getting to this place hadn’t been easy. You could say it was the accumulation of a lifelong, marathon effort. And not just his effort—his mom’s too. He pulled all-nighters in high school…while she worked overtime as a single mom…he joined every extracurricular, got himself into a selective college…she borrowed money from friends, budgeted every penny…

And it seemed like he was becoming the embodiment of all that hard work.

Rebecca: He turned out beautifully.

Reema: This is Sian-Pierre’s mom, Rebecca. 

Rebecca: He’s done very, very well. We’re so proud of him. 

Reema: But it’s right around this time, as his career was really taking off…that hers started to crumble. 

He started realizing something was wrong when the calls began…he’d be in the middle of the newsroom when his mom would hit him up, sounding incredibly upset. 

Sian-Pierre: I never heard my mom this broken up, like back to back to back to back to back, where like she’s sobbing on the phone or she screaming at the top of her lungs or, you know, like, and you could just like slowly hear a different mom.

Reema: Rebecca was the executive housekeeper for a hotel in Boston—pretty much the same job she’d held for Sian-Pierre’s whole life. But now, at 75 years old, she felt like they were taking away her responsibilities, leaving her out of important meetings and she says she started getting these disciplinary notices that she’d never gotten before. 

Rebecca: I felt I was being pushed out and I’d get upset and I worked so hard and be tired and everything.

Reema: She started to wonder…am I going to lose my job? She’d call Sian-Pierre like three times a day, and each time he’d step aside from his desk or from the live interview he was about to do, and he’d try to reassure her…

Sian-Pierre (montage) Listen, mom, don’t worry. Everything is going to be okay. just write them back really kindly and say this… Don’t give them an inch because they’ll take a mile… Pull yourself away from the emotion… Like I hear it, but… These are the points that you need to get across….

Reema: It’ll be fine, he told her…you’ll be fine…

Sian-Pierre: Everything was going to be fine.

Reema: But throughout these months, it became more and more clear that things weren’t fine. Rebecca kept getting these weird vibes at work… And Sian-Pierre knew that if she lost her income, he would be her only lifeline. And then what would happen to his life?

Sian-Pierre: And like, if I miss this assignment or, you know, what happens to me? What, like, where will I be? You know? And so it was just a constant negotiation about how much of myself to, to give.

Reema: I’m Reema Khrais and welcome to This is Uncomfortable…a show from Marketplace about life and how money messes with it. 

In this country, we work and work and work…with the idea …or really the promise… that at a certain point we’ll be able to stop working and just…chill. To retire and finally do all those things we dreamed of and never had time for. For so many Americans though…that kinda retirement is a mere fantasy. And the plan is to work until…you die. But of course, it’s not always up to you. And if you fall…who’s there to catch you? This week, what one person did when his mom’s reality came crashing down… on both of them…

[music]

Reema: The way Sian Pierre describes his relationship with his mom…I don’t know, I found it really sweet… 

Sian-Pierre: I connected with her on like, just like a soul level, you know, it’s, um, it’s really, really hard to, to describe, uh, we…

Reema: Even as a kid?  

Sian-Pierre: Even as a kid, always in sync, always in sync 

Rebecca: I mean, we cooked together. We, we learned together. We read together, we wrote together

Reema: I interviewed them separately, and they both described their relationship as best friends.

Sian-Pierre: We were always a team 

Rebecca: We’ve always been very close. 

Reema: Rebecca raised her son—and Sian Pierre’s older brother—pretty much alone. She’d arrived to the U.S. from the UK in her late 20s, working in tourism. The three of them then settled in Boston at the YWCA, which offered affordable housing for women. And right from the jump, Sian-Pierre’s childhood was kind of like this case study in contrasts. First off, they were an interracial family—he and his brother are black, while his mom, Rebecca, is white. And even though they grew up in affordable housing, the building was right in the middle of this high-end area of Boston. 

Sian-Pierre: We grew up, um, at the YW in an area that was so wealthy, right. Like the people who lived in that building were, um, folks who were sort of just getting by.

Reema: For decades, Rebecca threw herself into her job as an Executive Housekeeper. She’d grown up during World War II in a family where money was always tight. Her own mom was a midwife, who worked nonstop…and Rebecca remembers asking her…isn’t this all too much? 

Rebecca: And I’d say, mom, aren’t you tired? “There’s nothing I can’t do.There’s nothing you can’t do. Things happen. You get up, you’ve got to do them. You go off and you get up and you do them.” That’s been my method. The whole life is nothing I cannot do…

Reema: So yeah, for years, that’s what Rebecca did. She got up, day after day…and provided for her sons. Their apartment had two bedrooms. Her oldest son struggled with mental illness, so she decided to give him his own room. And Sian-Pierre shared a room – and a bed – with her. Each morning, Rebecca would wake up at 5:30, make her sons some poached eggs and fix her hair into her signature high bun. She told them who would pick them up from school, and that there was frozen dinner in the fridge. And then, she was off to work at the hotel, from early morning until late in the evening… 

Sian-Pierre: Her hands were always, you know, cracked and dry from chemicals. 

Rebecca: I’d like to see it clean. I like to see it finished and perfect.

Sian-Pierre: People trusted her and they respected her and followed her.

Rebecca: I love my job. A hotel family is your extended family. 

Sian-Pierre: she cared, you know, my mom if any of her room attendants’ families passed away, she would always be at the funeral.

Rebecca: I have never been absent, never been late in my whole career. 

Reema: Wow.

Rebecca: Never took a sick day.

Reema: Why not? 

Rebecca: Well, if you don’t take your sick days, you get paid three days’ pay, in cash! You make it however you can, you make it however you can. 

Reema: Throughout most of Sian Pierre’s childhood, Rebecca was making between 45 and 55-thousand dollars a year…and a good chunk of that went towards sending him and his brother to a private, Catholic school. Her bills were constantly looming.

Rebecca: It week to week, a week to week, week to week, week to week. 

Reema: That must’ve been stressful. 

Rebecca: It was very hard. It was very, very hard. I never really involved Sian-Pierre and them in my worries, you know what I mean? It’s always make them think everything’s fine to make them feel secure. 

Reema: But of course, as a kid, you pick up on cues. Like they couldn’t afford for Sian Pierre to join his friends on ski trips, and he’d notice how his classmates’ families owned actual houses—and not just your typical kinda home, but multiple stories with home theaters, even live-in chefs…

Sian-Pierre: I remember coming home one day and being like, mom, like, why don’t we have, you know, and like, you need to work harder. Like, this is like, good enough. Like, this is embarrassing, you know? 

Sian-Pierre: I just remember going to sleep that night, in the same room as her and hearing her cry and feeling like, just so, so torn up about it afterwards. 

Reema: It was tough on all of them. To help make ends meet, his mom sometimes had to rely on other people, borrowing 30 bucks here, 50 bucks there…paying it back as soon as she could. And that’s just the way it was with money—it came in, and it went out, to pay for whatever Sian-Pierre and his brother needed. They never really talked about money, in part because they barely ever had a second to surface from the grind they were in. As far as Rebecca was concerned, she had one mission: Get Sian-Pierre into the best college possible.

Rebecca: It was important because it’s the only way to make it in this world, and especially as you’re Black. I wanted to make quite sure that he had every best best foot forward going, because they deserved it. 

Reema: His senior year, Sian-Pierre got accepted into a handful of schools. Colgate University offered the best financial aid package. It’d cost about 50-thousand dollars a year…but for Sian-Pierre, it would be about 25-thousand. 

Sian-Pierre: And I remember talking to mom and just saying like, Hey, this is what it is, you know? And Colgate’s one of the best ones that you can get into. And she said, that she would split it with me. 

Reema: Sian-Pierre got some grants, took out student loans. He wasn’t sure how his mom was planning to pay for her half, and he didn’t ask. But without telling him…she’d made a big decision.  

Rebecca: I took out my 401k plan. 

Reema: You did?

Rebecca: I paid for the first year. And then I took all my money out my 401k and paid them off.

Reema: Rebecca liquidated about 20 thousand dollars from her retirement plan to help pay for Sian-Pierre’s college… If you’re not super familiar with how 401k plans work, you get a tax break on the money you contribute and ideally it’ll grow over the years through the magic of compound interest. It’s a way to secure your future. But, like many people, Sian-Pierre didn’t know much about 401ks, like that his mom had to pay  a penalty and taxes for cashing out early. He didn’t even find out that that’s how she’d covered his tuition until a few years later…

Sian-Pierre: Really, it was just kind of like, okay, this is the way that you access money that you have that’s yours and cool, not ever sort of thinking about what 401k is really are used for, which is for you know, retirement.

Reema: Rebecca says that in the end, she felt fine pulling from her retirement plan ‘cause realistically retirement never felt like an option. Her whole life she’d been living paycheck to paycheck, and when that’s your reality, you don’t always have the luxury of seeing beyond what’s right in front of you…

And aside from Sian Pierre, she still had to financially support her older son struggling with mental illness. So her plan was no plan, it was just to get older and older…and keep on working at the hotel. 

Rebecca: I never ever think I’m going to leave that place…unless I’m in my box, you know, I was not concerned at all.

Reema: So that was that. She used her 401K to help get Sian-Pierre through college… And in 2006, on a chilly Sunday afternoon, he graduated.

Sian-Pierre: It meant a lot to her. I mean, I may know on graduation day, my mom was probably the best dressed, you know, in like in just like the nicest classiest outfi. And just, you know, it’s just so proud.

Rebecca: Seeing him cross that line as president of the class was amazing. A wonderful feeling of “Thank you, God. Thank you. God. The American dream is starting to come true!”

Reema: After graduation, Sian-Pierre moved to New York City, and the next few years were a constant grind…he ended up getting a job at BET, then CNN…he was going on camera during the Obama campaign. All the hard work, all the expenses, all the late nights—this is what it was for, right? To make it. And to make his mom proud.

And this is where we found him at the beginning of the story. Feeling good, moving up, full of ambition…just as his mom’s career started to fall apart. 

He’d visit her in Boston, trying to support her…and sometimes he’d record as she vented and shared how afraid she was about losing her job.

Rebecca: My management style is being questioned. I fear that I’m not trusted. That’s essentially what it is. I’m feeling a lack of trust in my ability.

Reema: In this video clip, Rebecca is slumped in a chair in the living room, looking distraught… She was working even harder. She’d get in earlier, stay later. Sian-Pierre was trying to help her any way he could—when he had to be in New York, he’d send her her favorite cheesecake, or a big bouquet of sunflowers. And when he was with her in Boston, he tried to help her with damage control…maybe an email to HR? Maybe bring in a third party?

But then, in September of 2016…Sian-Pierre got a fateful voicemail…

Sian-Pierre: My mom just says, “I just got fired, call me, bye.” 

Rebecca: I just got fired. Call me, bye. [‘end of message’]

Sian-Pierre: And I remember like my knees just giving out

Reema: Rebecca had been called into an office and told the hotel was restructuring. They thanked her and let her know that that day would be her last day on the job. Sian-Pierre was hours away, on a trip, in Paris…unable to get in touch with his mom til the next morning. 

Rebecca: It was really, it was just very hard. I was in a daze, I think for a couple of days.

Reema: As soon as Sian-Pierre got back, he hopped on a bus to Boston…where he found his mom in pieces.

Sian-Pierre: They gave her two weeks pay, um, and told her that she needed to leave the apartment within a year. 

Reema: Her apartment was attached to her job. That’s part of the way Rebecca had made ends meet all these years—by working in the same building where she lived. It meant a smaller paycheck, but she didn’t have to pay rent. So losing her job…meant losing her apartment too. 

Sian-Pierre: And so, you know, it’s kind of like that’s a doomsday scenario. 

Reema: It felt like this bone-deep betrayal…the system they’d both put so much faith into their whole lives—capitalism! The American Dream!—it had cut her loose, essentially telling her… “tough luck…there’s the door.” And, again… just as her American Dream was dying…his was coming true… you know, getting bigger assignments, steadily climbing up the media ladder…  

Sian-Pierre:  I’m like interviewing Tom Cruise, you know, and feeling like, “Oh my God, does it get better than this?” That was what made the decision so hard about what to do, because it was like, well, look at this world that’s opening up for you. Um, and, um, but also like, look at this world that’s closing in on her and, you know, like having to really decide, like which decision that you make, are you going to be able to live with? 

Reema: That winter, Sian-Pierre made the only decision he felt like could live with. He would temporarily move to Boston to support his 75-year-old mom. He decided not to renegotiate his contract with CNN, which was a big chunk of his earnings. He told himself…ok Mom has always been there for me. So now it’s my turn. 

Reema: It seems like there’s a bit of like reversal roles happening.

Rebecca: He became my mummy essentially. 

Reema: After the break…love…sacrifice…and a 20-foot avocado tree. 

[BREAK]

Reema: Sian-Pierre had left his life behind in New York. At least for the time being. His sole focus was on his mom and trying to help her find a new job. 

Sian-Pierre: Every day, it was dragging her to the computer. Like, “Okay, Mom, let’s just get your LinkedIn profile set up. And that’s all we’ll do today.” 

Reema: And then she’d be like…

Rebecca: I don’t want to go, leave me alone. 

 Reema: And he would plow forward anyway…

Sian-Pierre: Okay, let’s apply to five jobs today.

Rebecca: I don’t want to go. Nobody wants to hire me, leave me alone. 

Reema: This was her first time navigating an online job search… probably her first time making a resume, much less figuring out how to upload it. He’d try to coax her into these bite-sized daily goals, and he was still recording everything. Like in this clip, Rebecca squints into a laptop while Sian-Pierre sits behind her, coaching her as she scrolls through a website…

Rebecca: I don’t like to do this shit, I said.

Sian-Pierre: Why not? 

Rebecca: Cause I’m a housekeeper.

Sian-Pierre: Well, you always told me that sometimes you got to do things that you don’t want to do. 

Rebecca: Ain’t no reason on this world that anybody has done to hire somebody that’s 75 years of age.

Reema: Nothing was coming through. She’d go to interviews, put on her best outfit…then never get a call back. She and Sian-Pierre were both getting really exhausted. And as the weeks passed, he started to wonder…if she CAN’T find a job, how much of a financial cushion does she actually have? So one day, he decided to sit her down in the living room and ask her a question that he had never asked before. He turned on the camera…

Sian-Pierre: So how much money do you have in your bank account today?

Rebecca: About 600 dollars…

Reema: 600 dollars. In the clip, Rebecca looks down, away from the camera.

Rebecca: It’s very difficult right now.

Sian-Pierre: And it is, to me, one of the only moments that I was frozen, because it, you know like, okay, well that’s gone next week, you know, like what, what’s the plan for after that, you know? Um, and you can see it in her face that she just, there is no plan.

Reema: Sian Pierre felt gutted. After all those years of working long hours, never taking a sick day…his mom had been left with nearly nothing. And the small nest egg she did have, the 401k…well, she’d given it up for him and she’d stopped making contributions since then. 

Reema: And at that point, had you ever talked with her about her plan for retirement.

Sian-Pierre: We never, not once had a conversation about what would happen the day my mom stopped working. Because there was never a plan for my mom to stop working. 

Reema: And that’s the reality for millions of people in the U.S. One out of every 4 Americans doesn’t have a retirement plan. And those who do, well, studies show, many are at risk of losing their standard of living as they age. About half of older working households have less than 60 thousand dollars saved. Rebecca barely had enough to cover a few months of groceries. The only money she had coming in was Social Security, and unemployment…though a lot of that eventually went to support her older son. And she started to get deeply depressed.

Rebecca: I had let my work define me. And it let me down. It didn’t matter.  I felt, I don’t know, cast aside with nothing. 

Reema: For years, she’d tied her self-worth to her career…and now, without a job, she felt empty. She’d spend her days in bed, TV on constantly…

Rebecca: From the six o’clock news on, and then at 11 o’clock was the same thing over then. The next day was the last’s night news. And Antiques Roadshow, I watched that avidly, the same series over and over again. 

Rebecca was starting to mull over what she’d missed in giving her whole life to this job. The weekend trips, the dinners out, the time with her sons…

Rebecca: I missed a whole lifetime. I missed the lifetimes on the job of things that other people were doing. And, um, I just screwed myself in the end.

Reema: Rebecca says during this time she felt suicidal. 

It was really hard for Sian-Pierre to see his mom in this state. So he decided to do something about it, as a son but also as a journalist. He knew that she’d probably never have the money to do the things she’d missed out on. So he launched this crowdfunding campaign, to produce a documentary about his mom. The film would follow them as they checked off a bucket list of all the things she’d never gotten to do while she was working. He and Rebecca milked a cow for the first time, they took a hip hop class together…

Sian-Pierre: So what are we going to teach my mom today? What’s like, is this like an easy beginner session?

Dance instructor: This is your easy beginner session, intro to hip hop, hip hop 101.  

Reema: They reconnected with old relatives…

Rebecca: the one thing about family is that you can just drop off and pick up again, just like it never happened, just like it was yesterday.

Reema: visited her sister’s grave in England…

Rebecca: What it means to go to my sister’s grave is, it’s the first time I have the opportunity to say goodbye to her. 

Reema: And jumped out of a plane together…

Rebecca: For my final bucket list I wanted to go skydiving because I hear it makes you feel really free. 

Reema: It was almost like a retirement in fast forward, crammed into one year. This is actually how we found out about Sian-Pierre—through the documentary, which he called Duty Free. For a brief moment, their awful reality faded into the background. But eventually, the movie ends. The credits roll. And one day, Rebecca finds a piece of paper slipped under her front door. 

Rebecca: They actually sent me an eviction notice. It came right onto the door and that’s when all hell broke loose.

Reema: Up until that point, Sian Pierre had been fighting to extend her lease and had been able to buy her a few years. But now, after living there for 4 decades, Rebecca was finally going to have to leave it all behind. And she had to figure out where she was gonna go. 

Sian-Pierre: Either my mom moved back to England with the family that she had not lived with for decades, or she moved into a very, you know, either small or, you know, apartment that is extremely affordable in the far outskirts of Massachusetts, which, she would die there. Um, or she would move in with me. 

Reema: They went with that third option. Sian-Pierre had moved back to New York by then… and now, Rebecca would join him there. 

Picture, for a second, Sian-Pierre’s life: a 30-something year old guy, dating, working this busy schedule and living in New York City with roommates. You know, sometimes he stays out late. His apartment is often noisy, or messy after a party. Now picture Rebecca’s life: Quiet. Predictable. And a lot tidier. How exactly was this gonna work?

For now, Sian-Pierre could only focus on logistics. In March of 2020, he and his boyfriend went to Boston to pack Rebecca’s stuff into boxes. And once they got there…the reality started to sink in that her life was about to shrink. 

Sian-Pierre: So many dishes, you know, and it’s like, well, we don’t need three boxes of dishes because we already have enough dishes here.

Reema: Right.

Rebecca: That’s the difficulty of moving with somebody is that your stuff doesn’t fit into their space, and people are paying for space, and they have the right not to have somebody else’s clutter around them.

Reema: They tried to make some concessions—like, they carefully packed up her beloved 20-foot avocado tree, which she’d been raising since Sian-Pierre was a kid. It wasn’t just that Rebecca was attached to these objects, it’s more what they represented. A life is made up of a lot of actual stuff…and when Rebecca had to give it up, it felt like this physical symbol of giving up her independence. 

Rebecca: It was sad. It was sad.

Reema: For years, she had made all the decisions about how to live her life…and now?

Rebecca: I felt like I couldn’t call the shots anymore. You know, I’ve always been able to collect what I want and get what I want and trying to fit that into another person who is space, where there really isn’t enough room for all my stuff anyway. It was painful.

Reema: Before they said their final goodbye to the apartment, the home where Rebecca raised her boys, Sian Pierre did one last thing.

Sian-Pierre: I just remember going into the closet and, um, taking a key and etching all of our names into the closet because I was like, well, even if they paint over this, like we’re still here. 

Reema: On the day Rebecca got to New York, Sian-Pierre and his boyfriend were ready at the door to greet her.

Sian-Pierre: It was a beautiful day outside and we were on the terrace and you walked up with just your bag. And we were like, “Welcome home, roommate!”  

Reema: They made a big deal about welcoming her, getting her settled in, making it festive. They painted a green accent wall in her new room, set up a desk with a computer, did a deep clean…Still though, everyone was battling some nerves.

Reema: What were your hopes for that day? Because it’s, it’s a big day. 

Rebecca: Oh, I just wanted to feel like I was at home, and that I wasn’t going to be an inconvenience, and yeah…

Sian-Pierre: Hmm. My, I mean, my immediate hope was that the, I guess the, um, settling in, if you will, over time was not too terribly hard and that, you know, leaving your home of 40 years, wouldn’t loom over you, I guess. 

Reema: He wanted her to feel at home, even if this new home was a lot smaller…

Sian-Pierre: The line I remember most often was, “I moved from a 750-square foot apartment…”

Rebecca: 781 square foot! Remember! 

Sian-Pierre: “…to a 10 by 12 room!”

Reema: During this part of our conversation, Sian Pierre and Rebecca were actually sitting in this room, squeezed together on her twin bed. Her bedroom doesn’t have any windows, and she has to walk down the hall to use the bathroom. And as they’re figuring out how to be roommates, there’ve been a few tense moments. Like, she doesn’t love dirty dishes in the sink… 

Rebecca: “Well, I’ll be with you in a minute when I just cleaned up this sink a little bit,” but smiling, but really not smiling inside. Isn’t that right, Sian? You know that. [laughter]

Reema: She says she tries to make herself feel useful around the house. She makes the beds every morning, and she does everyone’s laundry. And there’s been an ongoing negotiation about what stuff of hers to keep, and what to give away. There’s still a pile of unopened boxes in their loft. But more than any of that, Rebecca’s had to manage this anxiety of not wanting to be a burden…

Rebecca: Like you’re a third wheel. Like you don’t know who’s going to cook the dinner? What are my responsibilities? You don’t want to interrupt anybody when they’re having a conversation or you’re going to go to bed or they have visitors come over. Where do you go? Do you say, hello? How are you? Everything. And then you go into your room and close the door or do you sit out there and sit with them? It’s different. 

Reema: This comes up a lot for her…this feeling of not wanting to impose, not wanting to overstep….

Rebecca: I’m invited outside when they’re having their dinner and so forth. 

Sian-Pierre: Ha! “I’m invited outside.” Sounds like you are locked in your room.

Rebecca: Well no no no, I mean to say, it’s not like I’m squirreled away. I mean, I can go out there any time I want.

Reema: And yeah, think about it…They’re living together again for the first time in nearly 20 years. Except this time, it’s in Sian-Pierre’s space, with his routines, his ways of doing things. And that can be awkward! He’s in his 30s, no kids…and sometimes he’s like…should Mom get to see everything I do??

Sian-Pierre: Like, you know, drinking before we go out. Right. Like, um, all of those things like my mom can and does have judgment on.

Rebecca: We only have one shot at life. For God’s sake, enjoy your life. I’m becoming more tolerant of that. Drinking, I will occasionally have a glass of wine with your friends, but I’m not a drinker. Whatever they want to do in their house is fine with me.

Reema: Money-wise, it’s been a stretch. Sian-Pierre’s rent went from about 1600 a month to just over 4000 a month when his roommates moved out and his mom moved in. For the most part, Rebecca hasn’t been able to contribute financially. But just recently, Sian-Pierre’s landlord hiked their rent by 500 bucks. So now, she’s gonna start chipping in from her Social Security checks…

Rebecca: I’ve always wanted to pay my way, so that’s what I’m going to do now.

Sian-Pierre: And we’ll see it, you know, we’ll see how it goes. And that’s the whole thing about this situation is that it’s kind of like… It really is, we are working together in a very real way. 

Rebecca: Somehow or another, the rent gets paid every month. We all eat. We all do what we have to do. No debt collectors on my doorstep. That’s that’s life.

Reema: But for Sian-Pierre, the hardest part of all of this hasn’t been the money. For years he’s grappled with this feeling, or really this question… how do you do right by a parent who’s given you everything? It’s this overwhelming mindset, that constantly bleeds into his day to day life.  

Sian-Pierre: I mean, frankly, the hardest thing is, you know, feeling emotionally tied to your happiness, right? Like feeling like it’s. We’re going out and you’re staying home that, you know, maybe you would be bored or that. Like that you are not having the same experience as we are having.

Rebecca: Well, allay your fears on that. If I have my TV and I’ve got my coffee, I’m home. My days of going out are over. I am 81 this year, and it’s not, you know… 

Sian-Pierre: Yeah. But I mean, like, I mean, even so much as like you have more time in the day, right. It’s like, um, you know, what are you doing with your day? Like, are you really living your day to the, the, the, like the biggest, like, best that you could be?

Reema: You can hear them struggling here…Rebecca wanting to reassure Sian-Pierre that she’s ok…and Sian-Pierre wanting to make sure that she’s more than ok. That she’s happy. They both feel the void that her career has left behind. Ane yeah…we tie so much of our self-worth to our work…or if you’re not working, what you can contribute. That’s the way the system is set up in the U.S.—your work can feel like it’s your identity, your virtue. But now that Sian-Pierre has become his mom’s retirement plan, he’s slowly realizing there’s only so much he can do to fill that gap….They’ve merged two different lives, at very different stages, where happiness means very different things. 

Sian-Pierre: It’s important to acknowledge that, like I’m not on your ride, you know? And that like, as much as I want you to be happy all of the time, like life is not that way. And I’m not happy all of the time and to be okay with just, 

Rebecca: Going with the flow.

Sian-Pierre: Exactly, and so that has been a big, a big sort of epiphany and like aha moment, which allows me to like, just relax a little bit and not have to sort of like strangle happiness out of every moment, you know?

Rebecca: Please relax! You’ve got me nervous! yeah. Be yourself. Enjoy yourself. I am happy, take these words: I’m happy Sian-Pierre. Don’t fret about it. 

Reema: Sian-Pierre and Rebecca have been living together again for nearly two years. And as far as they can see, this new living arrangement is permanent. For decades, they threw themselves into a system that promised limitless opportunity, if you were just willing to hustle for it. And it seemed to be working. Sian-Pierre was like the poster boy of his mom’s American Dream. But when the system fails a loved one, it fails us, too. So they’re leaning hard now on a different kind of system—their small but mighty family.

[music] 

Reema: So we originally aired that story in our 6th season. I called them up recently to see how they’re doing today. 

[Zoom ringing]

Reema: Well, hello. Hi! It’s good to see you all.

Rebecca: Nice to see you!

Sian-Pierrie: It’s great to see you.

Reema: Nice to see you all. Um, when was the last time we talked now? I think a few years?

Sian-Pierre: I, yeah, I think it was at least two years. Maybe three, yeah. We were in the other apartment. 

Rebecca: Yeah, that’s right. 

Sian-Pierre: So it had to be over a year and a half ago.

Reema: Oh, wait. Okay. “Other apartment.” So are you all not living together anymore?

Rebecca: No, no, we moved. I moved

Reema: Oh, so you’re living separately? That’s a big update!

Rebecca: Yeah but close by. He’s here every day. 

Sian-Pierre: [LAUGHS] 

Reema: Okay yeah, so give us the updates. Y’all are in different apartments in New York City.

Sian-Pierre: Yeah, we moved in 2023. Um, so we were living in that apartment in Chelsea, and I had been there for over a decade. My mom had been living there for about three years. Right?

Rebecca: Yeah. Yeah, right. Nice, nice apartment. Yeah.

Sian-Pierre: Uhhuh, me, my mom and my partner. Um, “two gay men and a mom,” as we say. And, um, yeah, they, um, there were a, a confluence of things, um, that forced a move, essentially. One was…

Rebecca: The rent was so high. 

Sian-Pierre: Exactly. 

Reema: How much was it?

Sian-Pierre: They raised our rent to just above 8,000.

Reema: [gasp] what? 

Rebecca: It was crazy. 

Sian-Pierre: Yeah, insane.

Reema: Sorry, that feels criminal. Eight thousand dollars.

Sian-Pierre: It is criminal. It was a very New York apartment, it was supposedly a four bedroom, but it wasn’t because there weren’t windows in the rooms. You know how New York does it. So anyway, they thought they could raise the rent that much, but like it just started to make no sense financially for us to stay in that apartment. And you know, three years of living with a mom, while I loved every second of it… [laugh]

Rebecca: Oh you’re a keeper.  [laugh]

Sian-Pierre: You know, we needed our own space. 

Rebecca: It was good, but it was too expensive.

Sian-Pierre: I mean, I think like, you know, in some ways, like, the move was definitely financially motivated, but at the same time, I have found a level of personal freedom, you know, from that, um… 

Rebecca: And that’s necessary! 

Sian-Pierre: Yeah, it’s super necessary as a, you know, growing adult. So, you know, it’s this like wonderful opportunity to feel more independent. And recognizing that my mom and I are on different rides in this life.

Rebecca: And I’m grateful for what I have. I have somewhere to sleep, I have food to eat, I’m in a nice place. So I have a beautiful studio, and he has a nice, I don’t know how many rooms you have there… Can’t count, really. Four or five rooms, isn’t it? 

Sian-Pierre: Yeah, so, um 

Rebecca: And a big garden, which he likes. And it’s actually cheaper for the two apartments than it is for the one. So that’s good 

Reema: Uh, what’s the breakdown? If you feel comfortable sharing.

Sian-Pierre: Yeah, I’m, um, paying, I’m paying $3000 a month for my mom’s apartment, uh, for a studio. 

Rebecca: A studio!

Sian-Pierre: Mmhmm in Brooklyn, and, uh, we’re paying, uh, 2650, uh, me and my partner. 

Rebecca: For this huge place. 

Sian-Pierre: For a much bigger place. But there was some thinking behind that, in that I wanted to make sure that when we split from our apartment in Manhattan, that my mom had a safe landing, you know. And what that meant to me was, you know, a security guard or somebody, a doorman on duty, that the apartment felt fresh and clean, um… 

Rebecca: Pretty new 

Sian-Pierre: And new. Yeah. 

Reema: I’m seeing it on camera right now. It looks very clean and fresh. It’s like white. What is that white by backsplash and white cabinets?

Reema: Show her all my lovely plants over there. 

Sian-Pierre: Yeah, mom wants to give you a tour…

Reema: It looks like a model apartment. Wow. It’s beautiful.

Sian-Pierre: It is, and she has a washer and dryer in-unit, which she uses way too much.

Rebecca: And a dishwasher!

Reema: Oh, what a luxury.

Rebecca: But I spent my life installing housekeeping systems in hotels. So, you know, I pretty much, it’s easy for me to keep it. If anybody comes to my house, they expect mine to be… You almost have to straighten the dog’s tail if somebody knocks on the door, because I am who I was. 

Reema: Yeah, no, it looks pristine.

Sian-Pierre: So we no longer live under her intense housekeeping tutelage. [laugh]

Rebecca: I do check on them two or three times a week, however. [laugh]

Reema: Yeah? Do you go over and tidy up for them ever?

Rebecca: Well, I’m basically the laundry person. [laugh] 

Reema: So you help out with laundry?

Rebecca: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. You’re talking every three days, maybe 42 pairs of underpants and 18 t-shirts, and I have to go. 

Reema: Aw, that’s sweet. 

Sian-Pierre: Yeah she’s very much involved in our lives, in my life, and um, she’s still a mom, at the end of the day. It doesn’t matter where we live separately, she’s still a mom. 

Rebecca: Yeah. Eighty-three. 

Reema: Oh wow, that’s amazing. Um, okay… still like a, a good amount of money. How are you all paying for it? 

Sian-Pierre: Um, I’m affording it, uh, the two apartments, and well, I split my apartment with my partner equally. So that 2650 splits, and 1325 each is pretty inexpensive, I’d say for New York, uh, rates. And then my mom, I pay for on my own.

Rebecca: I just put a small portion towards it.

Sian-Pierre: Yes, yes you do.

Reema: Oh, okay. From what source? 

Rebecca: From Social Security. 

Sian-Pierre: and then, yeah, so I’ve taken on a couple of different consulting gigs. I’ve taken on some commissioned film work. So just had to take on more work to pay for the additional apartment. 

Rebecca: It’s a lot on him because he’s working these extra jobs and he’s gonna have time for his relationship, and I understand that. 

Reema: So, Rebecca, it sounds like you’re spending a lot of time with Jean Pierre still visiting his apartment. How else are you spending your time these days? 

Rebecca: Well, in the, for the past few months, I volunteered, tutored at, uh, New York schools, teaching children, you know, how to read.

Reema: Oh, no way.

Sian-Pierre: And that’s mostly because like with the move,  I think you’d agree with this mom, but you feel like you lost a sense of community 

Rebecca: Oh, I did. Living in the apartment with them and all the neighbors would stop by and I had the garden on the front and every, whatever holiday, whether it was St. Patrick’s Day or Easter was all decorated out, and we had lots of people there looking and oo-ing and ah-ing. And I met so many nice people and I kept busy, but here, it’s very nice, it’s very clean, it’s very new, but I don’t know anybody, you know, really. 

Reema: Uh, and I remember, Rebecca, last time we talked, you mentioned how, I mean, this was a while ago now, but you tied so much of your identity and your sense of self worth to your work, and I imagine that’s evolved. How are you feeling these days?

Rebecca: Well I did, I let my work define me. I mean, that, that, that’s exactly it. Now I just, um,  I’m getting to know me as a person rather than me that works for somebody. And exploring what I like to do. I don’t have to be up all night. I don’t have to work seven days. I don’t have to do anything. I’m my own boss now, essentially.

Sian-Pierre: My mom always says though, like, she’s 83, nobody’s gonna tell her to work today or to not work today or to, that she is, if she wants to lay down all day, she’s gonna lay down all day!

Reema: Yeah that’s what she’s doing. 

Sian-Pierre: Exactly! [laugh]

Reema: I appreciate that. 

[laughter]

Reema: Sean Pierre, I’m curious how this experience has impacted the way that you think about your own retirement.

Sian-Pierre: Personally, I try not to get too hard on myself about what I have, and what my future might potentially look like, um, how set back I am…

Reema: How much do you currently have saved for retirement?

Sian-Pierre: I have, I have zero dollars saved for retirement. [laugh] And, um, there are days that I feel set back, and I can sit in it and think about how setback I am by family obligations, personal obligations, etc. And then there are days that I’m like, you know what? I’m gonna be just fine. You know, I’m 40 now, I have another 20 years to figure this out, and really making slow steps to try and do that, right? Like I just had a conversation with my accountant around 401k and because I run my own businesses, it’s like really, I, it’s all on me to kind of figure that out. Like just recognizing how involved I need to be in my own destiny has been an awakening for me. So trying to do that. Um, but at the same time, there’s money going out the door every day. You know, whether it’s for my own stuff, or for my mom, or for some just random general happening. Um,  so trying to find grace, um… 

Rebecca: Well fortunately, or unfortunately, before you retire I’ll be long gone so you won’t have me to pay for. That’s one that’s one good thing [laugh] look at the positive. 

Sian-Pierre: Yeah I guess so… um yeah it’s, it’s not easy. But I mean honestly, Reema it’s like I think about how poorly most people are doing in my generation that I’m not actually that behind. Um, and we’re all a little…

Reema: We’re all kind of struggling out here

Sian-Pierre: … not ready. Yeah.

Reema: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s hard, um, especially when you’re living in a city like New York and…

Sian-Pierre: Yeah, and people have said like, why don’t you leave? Like, just leave. Why don’t you, why are you there? And like that continues to come up and it, you know, in some ways I’m like, God, I’m an idiot. Why, why are we still here? Why am I affording two rents in New York City? But this place is like a source of happiness and joy and creativity. And if there’s one thing that, you know, gives me light every day, it’s the city. And like, why deny myself that, you know?

Reema: yea yea you’ve built a community there. Yeah. No, I get that.

Sian-Pierre: Yeah, you know, in, in another world, in another life, we would be in a different city. I would be paying less. I would be saving more for savings. I would be doing all of these things, but for right now, in this moment…

Rebecca: But would you be happy? You’re happy here.

Sian-Pierre: Exactly. I’m happy. 

Rebecca: And what price happiness?

Sian-Pierre: I’m happy I have my mom around me and, um…

Rebecca: You’re grateful for what you have. 

Sian-Pierre: Yeah.

Reema: We kept the conversation short because Rebecca was about to head to the airport to visit family in England. She was looking forward to the break… 

Sian-Pierre: I get a break too, so it all, [laugh] it all works out just great!

Reema: Yeah, you’ll just have to do your laundry for a little bit.

Sian-Pierre: Yeah, unfortunately I have to do my laundry while she’s away. That’s true! 

Rebecca: Are you kidding? Don’t bank on it! There will be 84 pairs of underpants and whatever the two of them, by…

Sian-Pierre: by the time you return.

Rebecca: …by the time I come back! [Laugh] That’s okay, I love him.

Reema: Y’all are lovely. Truly like, two of my favorite people to talk to. [laugh] Yeah, I y’all are so great. 

Sian-Pierre: Thank you.

Rebecca: Thank you. 

Reema: Alright, thanks!

Rebecca: Goodbye. 

Sian-Pierre: Bye.

Reema: Bye, y’all.   

Reema: Alright that is all for our show this week. By the way, if you want to hear more about Rebecca and Sian Pierre’s story, check out their documentary “Duty-Free.” And a big thank you to Sian-Pierre for sharing extra footage from the film with us, which was featured in this story.

Also, like I said, this is just one of more than 100 stories we’ve shared on TIU over the last 10 seasons… y’all should definitely check out the back catalog, there’s a lot to dig through. And maybe as a special anniversary gift, you all could leave us a review – that stuff really helps us out. Makes it easier for people to find us. And as always, if you have any thoughts or comments or wanna share your own story…you can always reach me and the team through uncomfortable@marketplace.org 

Also be sure to check out our weekly newsletter. Each Friday, we share what our team is currently obsessed with, the things we’re listening to and reading and watching. If you’re not already signed up for that, you can do that by going to marketplace.org/comfort  

The original story was lead-produced by Camila Kerwin, and the update was produced by Zoë Saunders. And this episode was hosted by me, Reema Khrais. We got additional support from Karen Duffin, Hayley Hershman, Phoebe Unterman, Marque Greene, Marielle Segarra, Alice Wilder, and Jasmine Romero. Sound design and audio engineering by Drew Jostad. Zoë Saunders is our Senior Producer. Bridget Bodnar is Marketplace’s Director of Podcasts. And Caitlin Esch is Supervising Senior Producer. Francesca Levy is the Executive Director of Digital. Neal Scarbrough is Vice President and general manager of Marketplace. And our theme music is by Wonderly. Special thanks to Angie Chen from the Center for Retirement Research at Boston College. 

Alright, I will catch y’all next week.